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Fantasy » alt.fan.pratchett » [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth'
[A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252025] Mi, 12 April 2006 06:09
ansh  
Hi everybody,

I'm a new poster (I've been lurking for a while). While I was doing
research for a history paper I came across something (or rather
somebody) upon whom Terry might've based William de Worde in "The
Truth."

I'm fairly sure this is a new annotation because I did not find any
mention of it on the l-space web. I wasn't sure if I should limit my
posting to just alt.books or also alt.fan so I decided to do both. If
I was wrong, apologies!

Anyway, I believe that William de Worde may be loosely based on Wynken
de Worde -- the successor to William Caxton who set up the first
English printing press in Westminster in 1476.

Wynken de Worde took over the press in 1491 and was more interested in
the London (city) market, so he moved the press to Fleet Street in
1500; which is where I believe the newspaper reference comes in.

Wynken de Worde died in 1535 after publishing almost 800 books and
Fleet street became the national center of printing (and newspapers, in
more modern times) and remained so till 1980.

Thanks for reading. I would welcome any comments on this.

My source was Stephen Inwood's "A history of London."

ansh
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252033 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 09:34
Keith Edgerley  
"ansh" <anatwork.kay [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1144814995.517421.197240 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> Hi everybody,
>
> I'm a new poster (I've been lurking for a while). While I was doing
> research for a history paper I came across something (or rather
> somebody) upon whom Terry might've based William de Worde in "The
> Truth."
>
> I'm fairly sure this is a new annotation because I did not find any
> mention of it on the l-space web. I wasn't sure if I should limit my
> posting to just alt.books or also alt.fan so I decided to do both. If
> I was wrong, apologies!
>
> Anyway, I believe that William de Worde may be loosely based on Wynken
> de Worde -- the successor to William Caxton who set up the first
> English printing press in Westminster in 1476.
>
> Wynken de Worde took over the press in 1491 and was more interested in
> the London (city) market, so he moved the press to Fleet Street in
> 1500; which is where I believe the newspaper reference comes in.
>
> Wynken de Worde died in 1535 after publishing almost 800 books and
> Fleet street became the national center of printing (and newspapers, in
> more modern times) and remained so till 1980.
>
> Thanks for reading. I would welcome any comments on this.

No, you are not the first. The reference was spotted by many people on first
reading.

A word in your shell-like... Be careful how you use the phrase "is based
on". Even "loosely based on". There is no suggestion that William de Worde
resembles Wynkyn - who was a printer, not a writer -in appearance,
idiosyncrasies of behaviour, moral character, political opinions, private
life, etc. All we have is a resemblance of name. We may assume that the
journalist character was created before he was named William de Worde, i.e.
the character was not "inspired" by Winkyn.
What we have here is of the nature of an in-joke. Pterry would expect, or at
least hope, that most of his readers would spot the allusion.
At the same time, as so often with Pterry, there are multiple layers. Apart
from a reference to Wynkyn de Worde, the name "de Worde" suggests someone
who makehis living through language and, more remote, what is a
journalist/writer but someone who processes words - a word-processor.

Keith
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252046 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 11:59
SeekUp  
I thought that the afp was for exactly that - to point out the in-jokes that
the more poorly educated amongst us might have missed. Ta to the original
poster, I found it interesting.



"Keith Edgerley" <edgerley.kj [at] bluewin.ch> wrote

> No, you are not the first. The reference was spotted by many people on
> first
> reading.
>
....
> What we have here is of the nature of an in-joke. Pterry would expect, or
> at
> least hope, that most of his readers would spot the allusion.
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252049 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 12:08
ncwaite  
Keith Edgerley wrote:
> "ansh" <anatwork.kay [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1144814995.517421.197240 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > I'm a new poster (I've been lurking for a while). While I was doing
> > research for a history paper I came across something (or rather
> > somebody) upon whom Terry might've based William de Worde in "The
> > Truth."
> >
> > I'm fairly sure this is a new annotation because I did not find any
> > mention of it on the l-space web. I wasn't sure if I should limit my
> > posting to just alt.books or also alt.fan so I decided to do both. If
> > I was wrong, apologies!
> >
> > Anyway, I believe that William de Worde may be loosely based on Wynken
> > de Worde -- the successor to William Caxton who set up the first
> > English printing press in Westminster in 1476.
> >
> > Wynken de Worde took over the press in 1491 and was more interested in
> > the London (city) market, so he moved the press to Fleet Street in
> > 1500; which is where I believe the newspaper reference comes in.
> >
> > Wynken de Worde died in 1535 after publishing almost 800 books and
> > Fleet street became the national center of printing (and newspapers, in
> > more modern times) and remained so till 1980.
> >
> > Thanks for reading. I would welcome any comments on this.
>
> No, you are not the first. The reference was spotted by many people on first
> reading.
>
> A word in your shell-like... Be careful how you use the phrase "is based
> on". Even "loosely based on". There is no suggestion that William de Worde
> resembles Wynkyn - who was a printer, not a writer -in appearance,
> idiosyncrasies of behaviour, moral character, political opinions, private
> life, etc. All we have is a resemblance of name. We may assume that the
> journalist character was created before he was named William de Worde, i.e.
> the character was not "inspired" by Winkyn.
> What we have here is of the nature of an in-joke. Pterry would expect, or at
> least hope, that most of his readers would spot the allusion.
> At the same time, as so often with Pterry, there are multiple layers. Apart
> from a reference to Wynkyn de Worde, the name "de Worde" suggests someone
> who makehis living through language and, more remote, what is a
> journalist/writer but someone who processes words - a word-processor.
>

In fact the name "William de Worde" looks more like a combination of
"William Caxton" and "Wynken de Worde".

Cheers,
Nigel.
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252078 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 13:58
Arthur Hagen  
Keith Edgerley <edgerley.kj [at] bluewin.ch> wrote:
> "ansh" <anatwork.kay [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1144814995.517421.197240 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>> Hi everybody,
>>
>> I'm a new poster (I've been lurking for a while). While I was doing
>> research for a history paper I came across something (or rather
>> somebody) upon whom Terry might've based William de Worde in "The
>> Truth."
>>
>> I'm fairly sure this is a new annotation because I did not find any
>> mention of it on the l-space web. I wasn't sure if I should limit my
>> posting to just alt.books or also alt.fan so I decided to do both.
>> If I was wrong, apologies!
>>
>> Anyway, I believe that William de Worde may be loosely based on
>> Wynken de Worde -- the successor to William Caxton who set up the
>> first English printing press in Westminster in 1476.
>>
>> Wynken de Worde took over the press in 1491 and was more interested
>> in the London (city) market, so he moved the press to Fleet Street in
>> 1500; which is where I believe the newspaper reference comes in.
>>
>> Wynken de Worde died in 1535 after publishing almost 800 books and
>> Fleet street became the national center of printing (and newspapers,
>> in more modern times) and remained so till 1980.
>>
>> Thanks for reading. I would welcome any comments on this.
>
> No, you are not the first. The reference was spotted by many people
> on first reading.
>
> A word in your shell-like... Be careful how you use the phrase "is
> based on". Even "loosely based on". There is no suggestion that
> William de Worde resembles Wynkyn - who was a printer, not a writer
> -in appearance, idiosyncrasies of behaviour, moral character,
> political opinions, private life, etc. All we have is a resemblance
> of name. We may assume that the journalist character was created
> before he was named William de Worde, i.e. the character was not
> "inspired" by Winkyn.
> What we have here is of the nature of an in-joke. Pterry would
> expect, or at least hope, that most of his readers would spot the
> allusion.
> At the same time, as so often with Pterry, there are multiple layers.
> Apart from a reference to Wynkyn de Worde, the name "de Worde"
> suggests someone who makehis living through language and, more
> remote, what is a journalist/writer but someone who processes words -
> a word-processor.

You might want to employ one. You spelled Wynken as "Wynkyn", "Winkyn" and
"Wynkyn". That's 3 out of 3.

--
*Art
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252089 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 14:27
Daibhid Ceannaideach  
Also Sprach Keith Edgerley:

>
> "ansh" <anatwork.kay [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1144814995.517421.197240 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com..
> .
>> Hi everybody,
>>
>> I'm a new poster (I've been lurking for a while). While I
>> was doing research for a history paper I came across
>> something (or rather somebody) upon whom Terry might've
>> based William de Worde in "The Truth."
>>
>> I'm fairly sure this is a new annotation because I did not
>> find any mention of it on the l-space web. I wasn't sure
>> if I should limit my posting to just alt.books or also
>> alt.fan so I decided to do both. If I was wrong,
>> apologies!
>>
>> Anyway, I believe that William de Worde may be loosely
>> based on Wynken de Worde -- the successor to William
>> Caxton who set up the first English printing press in
>> Westminster in 1476.

>> Thanks for reading. I would welcome any comments on this.

Be careful what you wish for...

> No, you are not the first. The reference was spotted by
> many people on first reading.

And many of them pointed it out without anyone jumping down
their throats.

> A word in your shell-like... Be careful how you use the
> phrase "is based on". Even "loosely based on". There is no
> suggestion that William de Worde resembles Wynkyn - who was
> a printer, not a writer -in appearance, idiosyncrasies of
> behaviour, moral character, political opinions, private
> life, etc. All we have is a resemblance of name. We may
> assume that the journalist character was created before he
> was named William de Worde, i.e. the character was not
> "inspired" by Winkyn.

You may assume that if you like, but those of us who research
our opinions know that William's name, and the idea that he's
potentially involved in the printing revolution, first appear
in the original Discworld Companion.

> What we have here is of the nature of
> an in-joke. Pterry would expect, or at least hope, that
> most of his readers would spot the allusion.

So why, exactly, does the APF and the [A]-tag even exist?

--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"Sometimes scientific progress requires personal sacrifice.
Personally, I sacrifice Beaker." -Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252130 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 19:14
emma_anne  
Keith Edgerley <edgerley.kj [at] bluewin.ch> wrote:

> Pterry would expect, or at
> least hope, that most of his readers would spot the allusion.

Good heavens, I hope not! I've never heard of this Wynken fellow
before. I think you vastly overestimate the familiarity of the average
reader with 15th century printing in London.
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252134 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 19:36
Leo Breebaart  
Daibhid Ceanaideach <daibhidchenedelh [at] aol.com> writes:

> Also Sprach Keith Edgerley:
>
> >
> > "ansh" <anatwork.kay [at] gmail.com> wrote
>
> >> I'm a new poster (I've been lurking for a while). While I
> >> was doing research for a history paper I came across
> >> something (or rather somebody) upon whom Terry might've
> >> based William de Worde in "The Truth."
> >>
> >> I'm fairly sure this is a new annotation because I did not
> >> find any mention of it on the l-space web.

This is not a criticism or a flame, but a sincere question: can
you tell me how you tried to look for this on L-Space? If I enter
'Worde' in the L-Space search box, the relevant APF entry is the
third link, and if I enter 'Wynkyn' the entry is the first and
only result.

All I can think of is that you must have just browsed through the
entries for _The Truth_, without trying the search box. In that
case you wouldn't have found it, because APF entries are ordered
chronologically, and William appears first in the _Discworld
Companion_, as Daibhid explained, so that's where the annotation
for his name is located.

(This is a practical problem I do not really know how to solve. I
already feel there are too many explicit APF references back to
the first annotation of a recurring something or someone. Where
do you stop? The APF has a great annotation about the origin of
Rincewind's name -- should I link back to that at the beginning
of the chapter for every single Discworld novel that Rincewind
appears in? As even the minor characters are getting reused more
and more often in the novels, this would add dozens if not
hundreds of empty annotations that would do nothing to enhance
the readability of something that's already top-heavy.)


> > What we have here is of the nature of
> > an in-joke. Pterry would expect, or at least hope, that
> > most of his readers would spot the allusion.
>
> So why, exactly, does the APF and the [A]-tag even exist?

Logically, that does not follow. :-) It wasn't Terry who created
the APF or the [A] tag, so his expectations and hopes don't enter
into that particular equation.

--
Leo Breebaart <leo [at] lspace.org>
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252139 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 20:03
Daibhid Ceannaideach  
Also Sprach Leo Breebaart:

> Daibhid Ceanaideach <daibhidchenedelh [at] aol.com> writes:

>> > "ansh" <anatwork.kay [at] gmail.com> wrote
>>
>> >> I'm a new poster (I've been lurking for a while). While
>> >> I was doing research for a history paper I came across
>> >> something (or rather somebody) upon whom Terry might've
>> >> based William de Worde in "The Truth."
>> >>
>> >> I'm fairly sure this is a new annotation because I did
>> >> not find any mention of it on the l-space web.
>
> This is not a criticism or a flame, but a sincere question:
> can you tell me how you tried to look for this on L-Space?
> If I enter 'Worde' in the L-Space search box, the relevant
> APF entry is the third link, and if I enter 'Wynkyn' the
> entry is the first and only result.
>
> All I can think of is that you must have just browsed
> through the entries for _The Truth_, without trying the
> search box. In that case you wouldn't have found it,
> because APF entries are ordered chronologically, and
> William appears first in the _Discworld Companion_, as
> Daibhid explained, so that's where the annotation for his
> name is located.
>
> (This is a practical problem I do not really know how to
> solve. I already feel there are too many explicit APF
> references back to the first annotation of a recurring
> something or someone. Where do you stop? The APF has a
> great annotation about the origin of Rincewind's name --
> should I link back to that at the beginning of the chapter
> for every single Discworld novel that Rincewind appears in?
> As even the minor characters are getting reused more and
> more often in the novels, this would add dozens if not
> hundreds of empty annotations that would do nothing to
> enhance the readability of something that's already
> top-heavy.)

I think it has to be decided on a case-by-case basis. In the
case of Rincewind, I think everyone knows that his first
appearance was CoM. In the case of William, only the most
obsessive of us would remember that his first appearance was
in a DW reference book, not the novel he's (seemingly)
introduced in.

>> > What we have here is of the nature of
>> > an in-joke. Pterry would expect, or at least hope, that
>> > most of his readers would spot the allusion.
>>
>> So why, exactly, does the APF and the [A]-tag even exist?
>
> Logically, that does not follow. :-) It wasn't Terry who
> created the APF or the [A] tag, so his expectations and
> hopes don't enter into that particular equation.

Fair point 8-).

--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"Sometimes scientific progress requires personal sacrifice.
Personally, I sacrifice Beaker." -Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252144 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 20:20
WitsEnd  
Wynken de Worde died in 1535 after publishing almost 800 books and
Fleet street became the national center of printing (and newspapers, in
more modern times) and remained so till 1980.

My source was Stephen Inwood's "A history of London."


ansh

That's very interesting. Thank you, Ansh.

I will google the gentleman and check out the book.

Isn't L-space wonderful? Thank you, Leo :-)

If you like myth and legend, crypts and spires, you might enjoy The
Aquarian Gude to Legendary London edited by John Matthews & Chesca
Potter. (Add salt, as needed).

WitsEnd
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252154 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 21:41
esmi  
on 12/04/2006 19:03 Daibhid Ceanaideach said the following:
> Also Sprach Leo Breebaart:

>>(This is a practical problem I do not really know how to
>>solve. I already feel there are too many explicit APF
>>references back to the first annotation of a recurring
>>something or someone. Where do you stop?

<snip>

> I think it has to be decided on a case-by-case basis. In the
> case of Rincewind, I think everyone knows that his first
> appearance was CoM.

Everyone? What if you had only just got into Discworld and the first,
and only, book you had read thus far was TLC?

I'm not trying to be facetious. Honest! I genuinly believe that this
sort of thing happens all of the time and that, sometimes, we can forget:

a} what it feels like to discover the series for the first time.
b) that most people don't start at the beginning with COM

So, I think it might be safer to assume that yer-average-APF visitor
doesn't know *anything*.

> In the case of William, only the most
> obsessive of us would remember that his first appearance was
> in a DW reference book, not the novel he's (seemingly)
> introduced in.

Agree but the problem remains that there has to be some sort of standard
approach as to where an annotation is placed within the archive and it
would seem to be reasonable that a character's first appearance, or
reference, would be the obvious place to cite it.

Leo's problem, as I understand it, is that too many back references may
actually reduce the usability, and searchability, of the APF. So he's
left with making a choice and then sticking to it. Personally, I think
it's one of those 'win some, lose some' situations.

esmi
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252157 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 21:53
Daibhid Ceannaideach  
Also Sprach esmi:

> on 12/04/2006 19:03 Daibhid Ceanaideach said the following:
>> Also Sprach Leo Breebaart:
>
>>>(This is a practical problem I do not really know how to
>>>solve. I already feel there are too many explicit APF
>>>references back to the first annotation of a recurring
>>>something or someone. Where do you stop?
>
> <snip>
>
>> I think it has to be decided on a case-by-case basis. In
>> the case of Rincewind, I think everyone knows that his
>> first appearance was CoM.
>
> Everyone? What if you had only just got into Discworld and
> the first, and only, book you had read thus far was TLC?

Fair point, although if I were in that position, I probably
wouldn't know there *was* an APF 8-)...


--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"Sometimes scientific progress requires personal sacrifice.
Personally, I sacrifice Beaker." -Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252175 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 22:42
WiJo  
"Leo Breebaart" <leo [at] lspace.org> wrote in message
news:4a4s53FrhsqvU1 [at] individual.net...
> Daibhid Ceanaideach <daibhidchenedelh [at] aol.com> writes:
>
>> Also Sprach Keith Edgerley:
>>
>> >
>> > "ansh" <anatwork.kay [at] gmail.com> wrote
>>
<snip>
>
> All I can think of is that you must have just browsed through the
> entries for _The Truth_, without trying the search box. In that
> case you wouldn't have found it, because APF entries are ordered
> chronologically, and William appears first in the _Discworld
> Companion_, as Daibhid explained, so that's where the annotation
> for his name is located.
>
> (This is a practical problem I do not really know how to solve. I
> already feel there are too many explicit APF references back to
> the first annotation of a recurring something or someone. Where
> do you stop? The APF has a great annotation about the origin of
> Rincewind's name -- should I link back to that at the beginning
> of the chapter for every single Discworld novel that Rincewind
> appears in? As even the minor characters are getting reused more
> and more often in the novels, this would add dozens if not
> hundreds of empty annotations that would do nothing to enhance
> the readability of something that's already top-heavy.)
>
>
> --
> Leo Breebaart <leo [at] lspace.org>

Perhaps you might be best served by a Character list. Click on a
character's name and get a list of the books in which s/he is found and
perhaps a representative quote, description or reference. You could link
from instances of a character's name in an annotation as well as having a
separate major/minor character list. It's a lot of work, though, no matter
how you slice it.

WiJO
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252176 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 22:31
esmi  
on 12/04/2006 20:53 Daibhid Ceanaideach said the following:
> Also Sprach esmi:

>>Everyone? What if you had only just got into Discworld and
>>the first, and only, book you had read thus far was TLC?

> Fair point, although if I were in that position, I probably
> wouldn't know there *was* an APF 8-)...

Or, presumably, an AFP.

I think we just went in a big circle :-)

esmi
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252179 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 22:47
ansh  
>This is not a criticism or a flame,
Thanks for making that clear :)

>but a sincere question: can
>you tell me how you tried to look for this on L-Space? If I enter
>'Worde' in the L-Space search box, the relevant APF entry is the
>third link, and if I enter 'Wynkyn' the entry is the first and
>only result.

As you have guessed, I just went through the annotations for "The
Truth".
Also, I haven't read "The Discworld Companion," it's hard to find in
America (where I study), and I've only seriously been collecting
Discworld books for the last year or so.

It makes sense logically for you to put the annotation for William's
name under "The Discworld Companion." But, speaking as a (fairly) new
reader, I assumed (not knowing that he'd been introduced earlier), that
an annotation about him would be under "The Truth," since the novel is
centred around him.
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252187 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 22:56
ansh  
Keith Edgerley <edgerley... [at] bluewin.ch> wrote:
>> Pterry would expect, or at
>> least hope, that most of his readers would spot the allusion.

Emma Anne <emma_a... [at] mac.com> wrote:
>Good heavens, I hope not! I've never heard of this Wynken fellow
>before. I think you vastly overestimate the familiarity of the average
>reader with 15th century printing in London.

Thanks! I thought it was something new too!

Also, Pterry puts in a lot of research into creating the Discworld
books. I think it would require being a specialist in several fields
over several time periods to "get" all the "in-jokes" in the discworld
novels.
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252188 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 22:58
ansh  
WitsEnd wrote:

>That's very interesting. Thank you, Ansh.

Thanks! :)
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252195 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 23:07
ansh  
To everybody,

I do apologise to long-time readers for inflicting a 'not-new'
annotation on you.

Most of you have been nice about it. Thanks, you're awesome!

Some of you have not. To them, thanks for your (albeit patronizing)
advice.

And to those who, like me, found out something new, I'm glad we could
share! :)

ansh
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252197 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 23:13
Daibhid Ceannaideach  
Also Sprach ansh:

> To everybody,
>
> I do apologise to long-time readers for inflicting a
> 'not-new' annotation on you.

Actually, ISTR the "rules" actually state an annotation *has* to
be pointed out more than once before it's a "proper" annotation
8-)...

--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"Sometimes scientific progress requires personal sacrifice.
Personally, I sacrifice Beaker." -Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252198 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 23:15
Daibhid Ceannaideach  
Also Sprach ansh:

> Keith Edgerley <edgerley... [at] bluewin.ch> wrote:
>>> Pterry would expect, or at
>>> least hope, that most of his readers would spot the
>>> allusion.
>
> Emma Anne <emma_a... [at] mac.com> wrote:
>>Good heavens, I hope not! I've never heard of this Wynken
>>fellow before. I think you vastly overestimate the
>>familiarity of the average reader with 15th century
>>printing in London.
>
> Thanks! I thought it was something new too!
>
> Also, Pterry puts in a lot of research into creating the
> Discworld books. I think it would require being a
> specialist in several fields over several time periods to
> "get" all the "in-jokes" in the discworld novels.

Absolutely. I *did* spot the de Worde reference, as it
happens, but many Meat Loaf references have passed me by
entirely until my Mum pointed them out, under the impression
they were obvious...

--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"Sometimes scientific progress requires personal sacrifice.
Personally, I sacrifice Beaker." -Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252204 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 23:22
ansh  
Daibhid Ceanaideach wrote:
>Absolutely. I *did* spot the de Worde reference, as it
>happens, but many Meat Loaf references have passed me by
>entirely until my Mum pointed them out, under the impression
>they were obvious...

Thank you for that, it makes me feel much better! :-)
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252205 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 23:23
Brenda  
Daibhid Ceanaideach said:

> ...many Meat Loaf references have passed me by
> entirely until my Mum pointed them out, under the impression
> they were obvious...

What, like the cover illustration of "Soul Music", for example?

If you know Meat Loaf, it's impossible to miss. If you don't, well, I guess
it's easy.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252210 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 23:26
Leo Breebaart  
"WiJo" <Noemail [at] nocomposmentis.zoom> writes:


> "Leo Breebaart" <leo [at] lspace.org> wrote in message
>
> > (This is a practical problem I do not really know how to
> > solve. I already feel there are too many explicit APF
> > references back to the first annotation of a recurring
> > something or someone. Where do you stop? The APF has a great
> > annotation about the origin of Rincewind's name -- should I
> > link back to that at the beginning of the chapter for every
> > single Discworld novel that Rincewind appears in? As even the
> > minor characters are getting reused more and more often in
> > the novels, this would add dozens if not hundreds of empty
> > annotations that would do nothing to enhance the readability
> > of something that's already top-heavy.)
>
> Perhaps you might be best served by a Character list.

We have something like that on L-Space in the form of the Who's
Who section. But that's not really complete, and not cross-linked
with the APF, alas.


> Click on a character's name and get a list of the books in
> which s/he is found and perhaps a representative quote,
> description or reference. You could link from instances of a
> character's name in an annotation as well as having a separate
> major/minor character list. It's a lot of work, though, no
> matter how you slice it.

More problematic is that the web version is just one of the APF's
formats, and not even (as far as I'm concerned) the primary one.
The APF is an actual reference book: whatever I do to it, it also
has to work (or at the very least not screw up) the ASCII text
and printed PostScript versions.

Having said that, I also readily concede that the *vast* majority
of APF readers encounter and read it in HTML-format only. From
that viewpoint it makes sense to expand extra effort to add
web-only usability bells and whistles.

No promises, but we'll see...

--
Leo Breebaart <leo [at] lspace.org>
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252212 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 23:28
Brian Wakeling  
In a speech called NMednRfc2rVR8qDZRVnyhA [at] bt.com,
Richard Heathfield uttered thus:
> Daibhid Ceanaideach said:
>
> > ...many Meat Loaf references have passed me by
> > entirely until my Mum pointed them out, under the impression
> > they were obvious...
>
> What, like the cover illustration of "Soul Music", for example?
>
> If you know Meat Loaf, it's impossible to miss. If you don't, well,
> I guess it's easy.

There is a point in SM, just before Death talks to Albert in A-M[1],
where, if you start playing "Bat Out of Hell", the main guitar riffs
start just as Death erupts from the flowerbed. It works quite well if
you time it right.


[1] I think - it's been a long while since I attempted this - mainly
because I didn't have a copy of SM available.


--
http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sabremeister/
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
"What's wrong with dropping out? To me, that is the whole point - to
remove oneself from an environment that is spiritually and
intellectually unfulfilling."
- William S Burroughs
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252215 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 23:32
Mark Foweraker  
Daibhid Ceanaideach wrote:
> Also Sprach Keith Edgerley:
>
>> "ansh" <anatwork.kay [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1144814995.517421.197240 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com..
>> .
>>> Hi everybody,
>>>
>>> I'm a new poster (I've been lurking for a while). While I
>>> was doing research for a history paper I came across
>>> something (or rather somebody) upon whom Terry might've
>>> based William de Worde in "The Truth."
>>>
>>> I'm fairly sure this is a new annotation because I did not
>>> find any mention of it on the l-space web. I wasn't sure
>>> if I should limit my posting to just alt.books or also
>>> alt.fan so I decided to do both. If I was wrong,
>>> apologies!
>>>
>>> Anyway, I believe that William de Worde may be loosely
>>> based on Wynken de Worde -- the successor to William
>>> Caxton who set up the first English printing press in
>>> Westminster in 1476.
>
>>> Thanks for reading. I would welcome any comments on this.
>
> Be careful what you wish for...
>
>> No, you are not the first. The reference was spotted by
>> many people on first reading.
>
> And many of them pointed it out without anyone jumping down
> their throats.
>
>> A word in your shell-like... Be careful how you use the
>> phrase "is based on". Even "loosely based on". There is no
>> suggestion that William de Worde resembles Wynkyn - who was
>> a printer, not a writer -in appearance, idiosyncrasies of
>> behaviour, moral character, political opinions, private
>> life, etc. All we have is a resemblance of name. We may
>> assume that the journalist character was created before he
>> was named William de Worde, i.e. the character was not
>> "inspired" by Winkyn.
>
> You may assume that if you like, but those of us who research
> our opinions know that William's name, and the idea that he's
> potentially involved in the printing revolution, first appear
> in the original Discworld Companion.
>
>> What we have here is of the nature of
>> an in-joke. Pterry would expect, or at least hope, that
>> most of his readers would spot the allusion.
>
> So why, exactly, does the APF and the [A]-tag even exist?
>
I am fairly eclectic in my knowledge, but not in many of the fields that
TP alludes to.

I would also add that William de Worde is unlikely to be based on anyone
as that would constrain what TP could have WdW do, however, he is
probably named after Caxton or de Worde in the same way as the Dwarfs
are named after other heroes of early printing or Typefaces (OK named
after heroes of early printing). To this end (as alluded to in another
post) the DW WdW is a writer / journalist and the Dwarfs are the
printers / publishers wheras in RW WC and WdW were printers / publishers
and the writers were prophets, apostles, priests, theologians,
philosophers and politicians.
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252219 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 23:39
Daibhid Ceannaideach  
Also Sprach Richard Heathfield:

> Daibhid Ceanaideach said:
>
>> ...many Meat Loaf references have passed me by
>> entirely until my Mum pointed them out, under the
>> impression they were obvious...
>
> What, like the cover illustration of "Soul Music", for
> example?
>
> If you know Meat Loaf, it's impossible to miss. If you
> don't, well, I guess it's easy.

That one I spotted 8-). More subtle ones, like the "Stop right
there!" in Maskerade, I needed pointed out.

I'm *aware* of Meat Loaf, but not to the extent I'll spot
these things unless I know they're there.

Even references I think I've spotted sometimes turn out to be
more complex than I thought. I, knowing my sister knows little
about Star Trek, explained "Today Is A Good Day For Someone
Else To Die" to her. She, knowing more about Native American
culture, explained it back...


--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"Sometimes scientific progress requires personal sacrifice.
Personally, I sacrifice Beaker." -Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252221 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 23:49
ansh  
Mark Foweraker wrote:

>I would also add that William de Worde is unlikely to be based on anyone
>as that would constrain what TP could have WdW do,

absolutely...bad word choice there on my part.

>he is probably named after Caxton or de Worde in the same way as the Dwarfs
>are named after other heroes of early printing or Typefaces (OK named after heroes of >early printing).

Again, I would agree with that assessment. I certainly did not mean to
imply that William de Worde was completely based on Wynken de
Worde...it is just that the similarity between the names struck me.
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252222 ] Do, 13 April 2006 00:02
ansh  
To everybody,

I do apologise to long-time readers for inflicting a 'not-new'
annotation on you.

Most of you have been nice about it. Thanks, you're awesome!

Some of you have not. Thanks for your (albeit patronizing) advice.

And to those who, like me, found out something new, I'm glad we could
share! :)

ansh
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252227 ] Do, 13 April 2006 00:26
Keith Edgerley  
"Arthur Hagen" <art [at] broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:e1iq1u$his$1 [at] tree.broomstick.com...
> Keith Edgerley <edgerley.kj [at] bluewin.ch> wrote:
> > "ansh" <anatwork.kay [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1144814995.517421.197240 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> >> Hi everybody,
> >>
> >> I'm a new poster (I've been lurking for a while). While I was doing
> >> research for a history paper I came across something (or rather
> >> somebody) upon whom Terry might've based William de Worde in "The
> >> Truth."
> >>
> >> I'm fairly sure this is a new annotation because I did not find any
> >> mention of it on the l-space web. I wasn't sure if I should limit my
> >> posting to just alt.books or also alt.fan so I decided to do both.
> >> If I was wrong, apologies!
> >>
> >> Anyway, I believe that William de Worde may be loosely based on
> >> Wynken de Worde -- the successor to William Caxton who set up the
> >> first English printing press in Westminster in 1476.
> >>
> >> >
> You might want to employ one. You spelled Wynken as "Wynkyn", "Winkyn"
and
> "Wynkyn". That's 3 out of 3.


Most people write Wynkyn.

Keith
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252232 ] Do, 13 April 2006 00:33
Orjan Westin  
ansh wrote:
> To everybody,
>
> I do apologise to long-time readers for inflicting a 'not-new'
> annotation on you.

No need to. Something we have been over a number of times on this group
is that no single poster speaks for all of us, and just because some
people have reacted badly it doesn't mean averybody agrees, as you've
seen.

You can expect to get replies along the lines of "We already know",
which I'm sure you can understand, but I'm glad to see you take it the
right way.

A repeat notice is actually useful, since it shows both that the
annotation is valid, and that it's worth noticing.

As it happens, I thought the name of WdW must be a wink at Caxton and de
Worde when I first read The Truth, but only because I had recently read
about Thomas Malory's Morte d'Arthur, which was first published by
Caxton.

(And then I waited for a reference to that novel for the whole length of
the book...)

It's not common knowledge, I think, and it's worth pointing out again.

Anyway, welcome to the groups. I've left the crosspost in, since I
don't know which group you are primarily reading this on, and this is
still relevant enough for abp, if only marginally. (Should it lose all
relevancy, I trust the poster making it so will remove abp from the
newsgroups line.)

Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252248 ] Do, 13 April 2006 01:06
Brenda  
Orjan Westin said:

> ansh wrote:
>> To everybody,
>>
>> I do apologise to long-time readers for inflicting a 'not-new'
>> annotation on you.
>
> No need to. Something we have been over a number of times on this group
> is that no single poster speaks for all of us,

Except me, of course. And it's my day off.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252250 ] Do, 13 April 2006 01:29
Stacie Hanes  
Richard Heathfield wrote:
> Orjan Westin said:
>
>> ansh wrote:
>>> To everybody,
>>>
>>> I do apologise to long-time readers for inflicting a 'not-new'
>>> annotation on you.
>>
>> No need to. Something we have been over a number of times on this
>> group is that no single poster speaks for all of us,
>
> Except me, of course. And it's my day off.

Pack some condoms!







I promise, that's the end of that. I couldn't help myself.

--
Stacie, fourth swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons & Bondage-happy predator
AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion & AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED
"If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible
warning." Catherine Aird, _His Burial Too_
http://esmeraldus.blogspot.com/
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252255 ] Do, 13 April 2006 01:55
Brenda  
Stacie Hanes said:

> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> Orjan Westin said:
>>
>>> Something we have been over a number of times on this
>>> group is that no single poster speaks for all of us,
>>
>> Except me, of course. And it's my day off.
>
> Pack some condoms!

Which bit of "it's my day off" didn't you understand? :-)

> I promise, that's the end of that. I couldn't help myself.

Nothing to see here; move along.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
Re: [A] New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252260 ] Do, 13 April 2006 02:23
Lesley Weston  
in article 1144814995.517421.197240 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com, ansh at
anatwork.kay [at] gmail.com wrote on 11/04/2006 9:09 PM:

> Hi everybody,
>
> I'm a new poster (I've been lurking for a while).

To begin with: Welcome! Have a chocolate coated cat, but don't use the chair
where it was just sitting.

> While I was doing
> research for a history paper I came across something (or rather
> somebody) upon whom Terry might've based William de Worde in "The
> Truth."
>
> I'm fairly sure this is a new annotation because I did not find any
> mention of it on the l-space web. I wasn't sure if I should limit my
> posting to just alt.books or also alt.fan so I decided to do both. If
> I was wrong, apologies!
>
> Anyway, I believe that William de Worde may be loosely based on Wynken
> de Worde -- the successor to William Caxton who set up the first
> English printing press in Westminster in 1476.

Excellent! This was certainly new information for me, and probably for most
other afpers.

--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252273 ] Do, 13 April 2006 02:52
Brenda  
On 12 Apr 2006 13:56:41 -0700, ansh wrote:

>
>Also, Pterry puts in a lot of research into creating the Discworld
>books. I think it would require being a specialist in several fields
>over several time periods to "get" all the "in-jokes" in the discworld
>novels.

Having the knowledge to understand them doesn't mean you'll notice the
in-jokes. After years of re-reading Discworld books I'm still finding things
I didn't notice before.

So I study carefully any character/place/event that I haven't yet noticed an
in-joke or reference for.

Reading can be hard work.




--
Free non-exclusive use of any of my ideas, speculations and analysis
posted to alt.books.pratchett is hereby granted to Terry Pratchett for
use in his books. In the event of quibbling or a tie, Terry wins.
All the best, Joe Bednorz
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252283 ] Do, 13 April 2006 03:08
Brenda  
Joe Bednorz said:

> Having the knowledge to understand them doesn't mean you'll notice the
> in-jokes. After years of re-reading Discworld books I'm still finding
> things I didn't notice before.

Some of the jokes are extremely well-hidden in plain view. My wife - an
intrinsically wonderful woman, I hasten to add (in case she reads this) -
is a bit of a Creosote in one respect, in that she does enjoy listening to
stories. Having read Maskerade to myself, I was reading it out loud to her,
and I got to the bit where the troll is being quizzed about his role inna
fast-movin' worlda publishin'. As you will undoubtedly recall, he answers:

" 'Ead 'itter. "

I thought the contrast between the troll's second-hand marketspeke and his
first-hand unsubtlety to be mildly amusing, but no more. Enough, at best,
to raise a wry smile, and that's all it had received when I had read the
book to myself earlier on.

And yet, as I read it out to my wife, she laughed out loud - appreciating
the joke far more than it appeared to deserve.

And then I did a mental rewind and playback of the syllables I'd just
spoken.

As I said - hidden in plain view. Brilliant.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252290 ] Do, 13 April 2006 04:06
Brenda  
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 01:08:22 +0000, Richard Heathfield wrote:

>
>Some of the jokes are extremely well-hidden in plain view. My wife - an
>intrinsically wonderful woman, I hasten to add (in case she reads this) -
>is a bit of a Creosote in one respect, in that she does enjoy listening to
>stories. Having read Maskerade to myself, I was reading it out loud to her,
>and I got to the bit where the troll is being quizzed about his role inna
>fast-movin' worlda publishin'. As you will undoubtedly recall, he answers:
>
>" 'Ead 'itter. "
>
>I thought the contrast between the troll's second-hand marketspeke and his
>first-hand unsubtlety to be mildly amusing, but no more. Enough, at best,
>to raise a wry smile, and that's all it had received when I had read the
>book to myself earlier on.
>
>And yet, as I read it out to my wife, she laughed out loud - appreciating
>the joke far more than it appeared to deserve.
>
>And then I did a mental rewind and playback of the syllables I'd just
>spoken.
>
>As I said - hidden in plain view. Brilliant.


Wonderful, I'd never gotten that either. Just as the fact that Death in
_Reaper Man_ ended up with "builder" as his retirement name had escaped me all
these years.

Looks like I've got to re-read everything again, only aloud this time.

It just hit me that listening to audio versions would irretrievably lose some
(a lot?) of the magic. You can re-read a book and suddenly get the phonetic
interpretation. But only by reading the book will you get the spelling.
If you do both, you may never make the connection between the spelling and the
pronunciation.



--
Free non-exclusive use of any of my ideas, speculations and analysis
posted to alt.books.pratchett is hereby granted to Terry Pratchett for
use in his books. In the event of quibbling or a tie, Terry wins.
All the best, Joe Bednorz
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252302 ] Do, 13 April 2006 04:57
ansh  
Orjan Westin wrote:
> ansh wrote:
> > To everybody,
> >
> > I do apologise to long-time readers for inflicting a 'not-new'
> > annotation on you.
>
> No need to. Something we have been over a number of times on this group
> is that no single poster speaks for all of us, and just because some
> people have reacted badly it doesn't mean averybody agrees, as you've
> seen.

yup

<snip>

> A repeat notice is actually useful, since it shows both that the
> annotation is valid, and that it's worth noticing.
<snip>
> It's not common knowledge, I think, and it's worth pointing out again.

that's good to know...and I did think it seemed fairly obscure.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who welcomed me to the group!

I'll be around. :-)
Re: [I] Meat Loaf // was New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252324 ] Do, 13 April 2006 08:36
Flesh-eating Dragon  
Daibhid Ceanaideach wrote:
> Also Sprach Richard Heathfield:
>> Daibhid Ceanaideach said:

>>> ...many Meat Loaf references have passed me by
>>> entirely until my Mum pointed them out, under the
>>> impression they were obvious...
[...]
>> If you know Meat Loaf, it's impossible to miss. If you
>> don't, well, I guess it's easy.
[...]
> I'm *aware* of Meat Loaf, but not to the extent I'll spot
> these things unless I know they're there.

I know practically nothing about the music of Meat Loaf. What I _do_
know is that the singer himself has a sense of humour and enjoys
fooling around and even playing practical jokes during interviews. I
have some respect for the guy on that basis alone.

Adrian.
Re: New user - Found new Annotation for 'The Truth' [message #252325 ] Do, 13 April 2006 08:41
Flesh-eating Dragon  
Richard Heathfield wrote:

> Some of the jokes are extremely well-hidden in plain view. My wife - an
> intrinsically wonderful woman, I hasten to add (in case she reads this) -
> is a bit of a Creosote in one respect, in that she does enjoy listening to
> stories. Having read Maskerade to myself, I was reading it out loud to her,
> and I got to the bit where the troll is being quizzed about his role inna
> fast-movin' worlda publishin'. As you will undoubtedly recall, he answers:
>
> " 'Ead 'itter. "
>
> I thought the contrast between the troll's second-hand marketspeke and his
> first-hand unsubtlety to be mildly amusing, but no more. Enough, at best,
> to raise a wry smile, and that's all it had received when I had read the
> book to myself earlier on.
>
> And yet, as I read it out to my wife, she laughed out loud - appreciating
> the joke far more than it appeared to deserve.
>
> And then I did a mental rewind and playback of the syllables I'd just
> spoken.
>
> As I said - hidden in plain view. Brilliant.

I was about to post saying that I still don't get it, and then I kept
thinking about it until I did. It's just a question of saying it with
the right intonation.

Adrian.
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